Comments on: IFR Lost Comm Procedures

By: Brian

Brian — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 00:42:00 +0000

Fair enough, and thank you!

By: Dtuuri

Dtuuri — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 05:14:00 +0000

The odds are slim of losing comm in the first place, and the odds of having to miss an approach are small as well. I doubt both things are going to happen at the same time. Maybe the FAA thought so too, so settled for not providing for that scenario in the rules.

My feeling is that you are only required to carry enough fuel, by regulation, to reach an area where the weather forecast supports a reasonable chance of being able to land. Forecasting is not an exact science and the area where weather is more favorable may be predictable in size, the geographic center of it could be missed by a couple hundred miles. Considering that, if you were authoring a missed approach/lost comm rule, would you declare that the pilot MUST proceed to the filed alternate? I doubt it. You’d let the poor soul use good judgment and 91.3(a) to safely get down, right? That’s just what I think they did.

Dave Tuuri

By: Brian

Brian — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 23:06:00 +0000

Thank you, Dave. Truly. Very comprehensive. I’m very grateful to you. I don’t mean to overstay my welcome here, or trespass on your hospitality, but may I trouble you with one more IFR lost comm question? It is as follows: (Let’s call it question #3) Let us say minimums are too low at our destination airport, and we’re forced fly to our filed Alternate. MY QUESTION: What route do we fly? Altitude I would expect is MEA until established on the published approach procedure at the IAF. But… again: What route to get to the IAF?

Again… thank you for your patience and guidance.

By: Dtuuri

Dtuuri — Sat, 21 Jan 2012 00:39:00 +0000

In question #1, if 6000′ is the assigned altitude, then you are correct. The altitude rule pertains to the route segment currently flown and ‘route segments’, i.e., 91.185(c)(2), end at the IAF where the ‘approach procedure’ takes over.

In question #2, you only wait for an ETA in the event you have been given a hold, but ATC has not yet given you an EFC. Routinely waiting until an ETA went away back in the 1980s, but some instructors, well most, didn’t notice the change. The old rule was based on a concept called EAC–”Expect Approach Clearance”. They did away with it by amendment to Part 91 (used to be 91.127, now 91.185). Confusion set in because they simultaneouly changed the title of paragraph (c)(3) from “Leave holding fix” to “Leave clearance limit”, so now everybody thinks you’re supposed to fly over the airport and leave there, since ATC loosely refers to the destination airport as a clearance limit.

But last year I got the chief counsel, after a struggle, to admit they intended no such thing as adding a holding pattern over the airport, therefore there’s no holding unless, like in the original rule, you are told to hold. Remember, your initial clearance is almost always to the destination airport, not a holding pattern. Here’s a link that goes back to the original rule, which was not proposed to be changed by AOPA’s petition to simplify the rest of Part 91. In the course of simplification, though, the FAA dropped EAC and changed ‘holding fix’ to ‘clearance limit’ . They didn’t want aircraft milling around, clogging up traffic and running low on gas in a modern radar environment.
http://www.avclicks.com/lost_comm/Lost_comm2/index.html

Dave Tuuri

By: Brian

Brian — Fri, 20 Jan 2012 23:47:00 +0000

Question 1) We maintain our last (highest) of the MEA/Expect/Assigned altitudes (in this case 6,000) and keep returning to it even if we had to climb to a higher MEA, we would return to that 6,000 feet even when a published MEA is lower BECASE it was the last assigned altitude. right? Question 2) Do we hold at the same 6000 at the IAF waiting for our filed ETA, but when do we start our decent? While still IN the hold, or as soon as we leave it? Thank you for your help. These are the things that drive me nuts when I don’t have answers to them.

By: Dan

Dan — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 00:39:00 +0000

Eeeeexcellent review.

By: Gary

Gary — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:49:00 +0000

Good review!! Thanks for posting Jason.

By: Rudy

Rudy — Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:39:00 +0000

Overhead a Fix, holding patterns are assigned with a minimum holding altitude and direction (left turns, right turns) in that pattern you can loose your altitude until your filled or assigned ETA, there after you can start your approach

This pattern is also a procedure for full approach procedures, so ATC can send you direct the fix to join the hold!

By: Jaacie

Jaacie — Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:33:00 +0000

Would like to see some Helicopter posts

By: IFRalessandro

IFRalessandro — Wed, 27 Jul 2011 03:22:00 +0000

squawk means put in the code 7600 in the transponder. 76oo is the FAA code to let ATC know that your radios have failed

By: Dbpreach

Dbpreach — Fri, 15 Jul 2011 17:12:00 +0000

What does squawk 7600 mean?

By: Dave Tuuri

Dave Tuuri — Thu, 12 May 2011 17:23:00 +0000

You may be interested to know that there is no need to hold until ETA unless holding instructions have been received without an EFC. I recently got the Chief Counsel to admit enough to put this misunderstanding to bed. Click here and read all the references in the bibliography at the end to understand the history of the ‘Lost Comm Amendment 91-189′: http://www.avclicks.com/lost_comm/Lost_comm2/index.html

Dave Tuuri

By: Jack Grady

Jack Grady — Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:47:00 +0000

good stuff.

By: David

David — Mon, 14 Mar 2011 20:02:00 +0000

Question: Are you saying we should ignore the “climb to 3000″ clearance once our comms go out and climb to 5000 immediately until our 10 minutes are up (then climb to 6000)?

By: Chorton

Chorton — Tue, 07 Dec 2010 22:25:00 +0000

how do we hold?