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PIC? SIC? Dual? How to log flight time

by Jason Schappert

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Jason Schappert
M0A Staff Writer

Pilot 1 – “So since I was in the left seat, all that time I must have been pilot in
command.”

Pilot 2 – “But I’m a CFI!”

Pilot 1 – “You didn’t teach me anything, you can’t log that as dual or PIC.”

Pilot 2 – “You wanna bet!?!?”

The only thing I can bet on is that you’ve either had, heard, or are going to have an
argument like the one above sometime in your flying career. Don’t you want to be the
one who’s on the right end of the argument? Let’s take a closer look on what exactly is
a PIC and how do you log it properly.

They’re three situations in which a pilot may log pilot in command time (PIC)

-You are the sole manipulator of the controls and operating an aircraft in which you are
rated.

Example: You are flying a Cessna 172 and currently hold an airplane
single engine land rating.

-You are the sole occupant in the aircraft

Example: You are properly rated and flying the aircraft solo. NOTE: Split personalities do not count as other occupants!!!

Now for the tough one.

-You are acting as pilot in command of an aircraft by which more than one pilot is
required under that aircrafts type certification or the regulations by which the flight is
conducted.

This one is a bit tough, in order to fully grasp this idea we must first understand the
difference between logging PIC and acting as PIC.

Acting as PIC – Regulations require that one person on board is always acting as PIC.
This person is legally responsible for the safe operation of that aircraft. However
regulations also allow for one additional person to log PIC as long as that person
generates an experience of sufficient value.

Example: You and a friend both have your private pilot licenses and
airplane single engine land ratings. You rent and Cessna 172 and take off for the sky.
Your friend decides to brush up on his instrument flying and puts on a view limiting
device. You act as his safety pilot, while he is the sole manipulator of the controls. Who
gets to log the PIC?

There are two answers to this question. Who did you elect to be the legal acting PIC? If
your friend said he’ll be the legal PIC or the acting PIC, he not only assumes all legal
responsibility, he is the only one who can log PIC. While you as a safety pilot can only
log SIC. Second and command in a 172, pretty good title huh?

The second more common scenario is while your friend is “under the hood” you act not
only as safety pilot, but also as PIC. Now you are responsible for the safety of the flight,
yet your friend is still the sole manipulator of the controls. This time both the safety pilot
acting as PIC and the pilot flying can log PIC.

Continuing with the safety pilot theme there is one other area that students ask me
about. “What if I act as a safety pilot for my friend in a Piper Arrow? I don’t have my
complex endorsement.” Although you do not have your complex endorsement your
friend is still required to have a safety pilot, and you are rating as single engine land. In
this situation you cannot log PIC but you can log it as SIC.
Now for the real heartbreaker, what if my friend and I go flying, both with single engine
land ratings and no one wears a view limiting device. Is there any situation that we
could both log PIC?

Unfortunately that is not possible, I’ve heard all the arguments from both sides of the
fence but the regulations 61.51(e) states all that we’ve said above.
What about logging time for instructors?
61.51(e)(3) states an instructor may log flight time as PIC when that individual is
instructing.

What about training for my complex or high performance endorsement?
Remember, this goes back to our acting or logging as PIC. As long as you are training,
with an authorized instructor who has said endorsement you are pursuing you can log
that time as PIC since your instructor is acting as PIC. Again this can be found in 61.51
I hope this clears up any misconceptions around the airport. Remember through
education and knowledge you can become a safer pilot.

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Tagged as: How to log flight time

  • CFI

    i disagree with this…the only time you can log SIC is when the aircraft requires it, basically when the aircraft needs a type rating. unless your flying a boeing, you probably shouldnt hav any SIC in your logbook

  • CFI

    i disagree with this…the only time you can log SIC is when the aircraft requires it, basically when the aircraft needs a type rating. unless your flying a boeing, you probably shouldnt hav any SIC in your logbook

  • CFI

    i disagree with this…the only time you can log SIC is when the aircraft requires it, basically when the aircraft needs a type rating. unless your flying a boeing, you probably shouldnt hav any SIC in your logbook

  • Jason Schappert

    Thanks for the comments and thanks for reading!

    Take a look at this straight off Rod Machado’s website:

    That person who is serving as a safety pilot may choose to act as the legal pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the time as PIC [per §61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time [per §61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all. However, the safety pilot’s name must be logged by the person practicing instrument flight [per §61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to act as the legal PIC for the flight that person must “. . . Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;” [per §61.31(d)(1)]. ). And if the flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc. aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must have the appropriate endorsements that are required by §61.31(e), (f) and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.

    Hope this clear it up.

    -Jason

  • Jason Schappert

    Thanks for the comments and thanks for reading!

    Take a look at this straight off Rod Machado’s website:

    That person who is serving as a safety pilot may choose to act as the legal pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the time as PIC [per §61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time [per §61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all. However, the safety pilot’s name must be logged by the person practicing instrument flight [per §61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to act as the legal PIC for the flight that person must “. . . Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;” [per §61.31(d)(1)]. ). And if the flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc. aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must have the appropriate endorsements that are required by §61.31(e), (f) and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.

    Hope this clear it up.

    -Jason

  • Jason Schappert

    Thanks for the comments and thanks for reading!

    Take a look at this straight off Rod Machado’s website:

    That person who is serving as a safety pilot may choose to act as the legal pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the time as PIC [per §61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time [per §61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all. However, the safety pilot’s name must be logged by the person practicing instrument flight [per §61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to act as the legal PIC for the flight that person must “. . . Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;” [per §61.31(d)(1)]. ). And if the flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc. aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must have the appropriate endorsements that are required by §61.31(e), (f) and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.

    Hope this clear it up.

    -Jason

  • http://aeronaut.ca/ Eric

    As I understand it, the safety pilot is the LEGAL PIC (being the hooded pilot’s eyes while operating in VMC), it can be logged as PIC time – but the PIC time logged by a safety pilot should NOT exceed the SIMULATED time logged by the instrument pilot.

    The safety pilot must be rated and endorsed to LEGALLY fly the airplane the training / practice is conducted in. He is not second in command; the flight is operating in visual conditions and he is actually the primary pilot. The only reason the hooded pilot is logging PIC time is that he is the SOLE MANIPULATOR of the flight controls.

    Rod might want to check with a FSDO regarding SIC time. I’ve never heard that before.

    FAR 61.51, A private pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight during which that person:
    (1) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
    (2) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
    (3) Is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft >>or the regulations under which the flight is conducted<>private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown<<.

    I don’t think Rod is correct in assuming that a safety pilot can be appropriately rated if he can’t legally fly the airplane.

    FAR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks

    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

    (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft’s type certificate; or

    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

  • http://aeronaut.ca/ Eric

    As I understand it, the safety pilot is the LEGAL PIC (being the hooded pilot’s eyes while operating in VMC), it can be logged as PIC time – but the PIC time logged by a safety pilot should NOT exceed the SIMULATED time logged by the instrument pilot.

    The safety pilot must be rated and endorsed to LEGALLY fly the airplane the training / practice is conducted in. He is not second in command; the flight is operating in visual conditions and he is actually the primary pilot. The only reason the hooded pilot is logging PIC time is that he is the SOLE MANIPULATOR of the flight controls.

    Rod might want to check with a FSDO regarding SIC time. I’ve never heard that before.

    FAR 61.51, A private pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight during which that person:
    (1) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
    (2) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
    (3) Is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft >>or the regulations under which the flight is conducted<>private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown<<.

    I don’t think Rod is correct in assuming that a safety pilot can be appropriately rated if he can’t legally fly the airplane.

    FAR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks

    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

    (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft’s type certificate; or

    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

  • http://aeronaut.ca/ Eric

    As I understand it, the safety pilot is the LEGAL PIC (being the hooded pilot’s eyes while operating in VMC), it can be logged as PIC time – but the PIC time logged by a safety pilot should NOT exceed the SIMULATED time logged by the instrument pilot.

    The safety pilot must be rated and endorsed to LEGALLY fly the airplane the training / practice is conducted in. He is not second in command; the flight is operating in visual conditions and he is actually the primary pilot. The only reason the hooded pilot is logging PIC time is that he is the SOLE MANIPULATOR of the flight controls.

    Rod might want to check with a FSDO regarding SIC time. I’ve never heard that before.

    FAR 61.51, A private pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight during which that person:
    (1) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
    (2) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
    (3) Is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft >>or the regulations under which the flight is conducted<>private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown<<.

    I don’t think Rod is correct in assuming that a safety pilot can be appropriately rated if he can’t legally fly the airplane.

    FAR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks

    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

    (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft’s type certificate; or

    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

  • http://aeronaut.ca Eric

    As I understand it, the safety pilot is the LEGAL PIC (being the hooded pilot’s eyes while operating in VMC), it can be logged as PIC time – but the PIC time logged by a safety pilot should NOT exceed the SIMULATED time logged by the instrument pilot.

    The safety pilot must be rated and endorsed to LEGALLY fly the airplane the training / practice is conducted in. He is not second in command; the flight is operating in visual conditions and he is actually the primary pilot. The only reason the hooded pilot is logging PIC time is that he is the SOLE MANIPULATOR of the flight controls.

    Rod might want to check with a FSDO regarding SIC time. I’ve never heard that before.

    FAR 61.51, A private pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight during which that person:
    (1) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
    (2) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
    (3) Is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft >>or the regulations under which the flight is conducted<>private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown<<.

    I don’t think Rod is correct in assuming that a safety pilot can be appropriately rated if he can’t legally fly the airplane.

    FAR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks

    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

    (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft’s type certificate; or

    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

  • CFI

    that still isnt right… a person does not necessarily have to have a complex sign-off in order to be a safety pilot in a complex airplane…think “single-engine land”…as for the SIC…if you look in the regs it says that the the only time a person can long SIC time is when the aircraft is cert. for it and requires it…aka a type rating

  • CFI

    that still isnt right… a person does not necessarily have to have a complex sign-off in order to be a safety pilot in a complex airplane…think “single-engine land”…as for the SIC…if you look in the regs it says that the the only time a person can long SIC time is when the aircraft is cert. for it and requires it…aka a type rating

  • CFI

    that still isnt right… a person does not necessarily have to have a complex sign-off in order to be a safety pilot in a complex airplane…think “single-engine land”…as for the SIC…if you look in the regs it says that the the only time a person can long SIC time is when the aircraft is cert. for it and requires it…aka a type rating

  • CFI

    that still isnt right… a person does not necessarily have to have a complex sign-off in order to be a safety pilot in a complex airplane…think “single-engine land”…as for the SIC…if you look in the regs it says that the the only time a person can long SIC time is when the aircraft is cert. for it and requires it…aka a type rating

  • http://www.m0a.com/ Jason Schappert

    I understand where you are coming from however lets look at this scenario.

    Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B for the purpose of practicing instrument flying in a high-performance aircraft. Pilot A may legally act as PIC and has agreed to act as PIC. Pilot A will be wearing a view-limiting device and will be flying by reference to instruments. Pilot B is rated in the aircraft and has a current medical certificate but is not instrument rated, endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, or have a current flight review. Pilot B has agreed to be the safety pilot for the flight.

    Pilot A may log PIC and simulated instrument time. Pilot B may log second-in-command (SIC) time. Pilot A is assuming PIC responsibilities and may log PIC. Pilot B is a crewmember where more than one pilot is required and may log SIC (FAR 61.51). Again, because Pilot B is a required crewmember, he/she will need a current medical certificate (FAR 61.3).

    Why is Pilot B a required crew member? Because you must always have a safety pilot under simulated instrument conditions. (FAR 91.109)

    Happy Flying!

    Jason

  • http://www.m0a.com/ Jason Schappert

    I understand where you are coming from however lets look at this scenario.

    Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B for the purpose of practicing instrument flying in a high-performance aircraft. Pilot A may legally act as PIC and has agreed to act as PIC. Pilot A will be wearing a view-limiting device and will be flying by reference to instruments. Pilot B is rated in the aircraft and has a current medical certificate but is not instrument rated, endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, or have a current flight review. Pilot B has agreed to be the safety pilot for the flight.

    Pilot A may log PIC and simulated instrument time. Pilot B may log second-in-command (SIC) time. Pilot A is assuming PIC responsibilities and may log PIC. Pilot B is a crewmember where more than one pilot is required and may log SIC (FAR 61.51). Again, because Pilot B is a required crewmember, he/she will need a current medical certificate (FAR 61.3).

    Why is Pilot B a required crew member? Because you must always have a safety pilot under simulated instrument conditions. (FAR 91.109)

    Happy Flying!

    Jason

  • http://www.m0a.com/ Jason Schappert

    I understand where you are coming from however lets look at this scenario.

    Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B for the purpose of practicing instrument flying in a high-performance aircraft. Pilot A may legally act as PIC and has agreed to act as PIC. Pilot A will be wearing a view-limiting device and will be flying by reference to instruments. Pilot B is rated in the aircraft and has a current medical certificate but is not instrument rated, endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, or have a current flight review. Pilot B has agreed to be the safety pilot for the flight.

    Pilot A may log PIC and simulated instrument time. Pilot B may log second-in-command (SIC) time. Pilot A is assuming PIC responsibilities and may log PIC. Pilot B is a crewmember where more than one pilot is required and may log SIC (FAR 61.51). Again, because Pilot B is a required crewmember, he/she will need a current medical certificate (FAR 61.3).

    Why is Pilot B a required crew member? Because you must always have a safety pilot under simulated instrument conditions. (FAR 91.109)

    Happy Flying!

    Jason

  • http://www.m0a.com Jason Schappert

    I understand where you are coming from however lets look at this scenario.

    Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B for the purpose of practicing instrument flying in a high-performance aircraft. Pilot A may legally act as PIC and has agreed to act as PIC. Pilot A will be wearing a view-limiting device and will be flying by reference to instruments. Pilot B is rated in the aircraft and has a current medical certificate but is not instrument rated, endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, or have a current flight review. Pilot B has agreed to be the safety pilot for the flight.

    Pilot A may log PIC and simulated instrument time. Pilot B may log second-in-command (SIC) time. Pilot A is assuming PIC responsibilities and may log PIC. Pilot B is a crewmember where more than one pilot is required and may log SIC (FAR 61.51). Again, because Pilot B is a required crewmember, he/she will need a current medical certificate (FAR 61.3).

    Why is Pilot B a required crew member? Because you must always have a safety pilot under simulated instrument conditions. (FAR 91.109)

    Happy Flying!

    Jason

  • CFI

    i still dont agree…both pilots technically can log PIC, just like how a CFI logs PIC even though his student would be the “sole manipulatier of the flight controls”…also a safety pilot does NOT have to have his high performance or complex sign-off in order to be a saftey pilot, he only has 2 have “at least a private pilot cert. with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.” FAR 91.109 last time i check neither of these sign-offs fall under either of these

    aw well in 91.109, nowhere in there does it say you can log SIC, like i said before techinically they are also PIC because they are responsible for “see and avoid” responsibility of other aircraft…therefore they can both log PIC, now as a “safety pilot” i prob wouldnt log that but since im a cfi i dont have to worry about that

    as i said in earlier comments…the only time a person may log SIC is a)when a TYPE rating is required b)an aircraft over 12,500 lbs, c)any turbo-jet aircraft, and d)any aircraft the FAA deems worthy of requiring a SIC… last time i checked a saftey pilot doesnt fall under any of these…technically yes in order for Pilot A to be under the foggles another person has to be aboard but that other person does not meet any of this criteria for SIC

    now in your scenario above i dont think Pilot B would be able to act as either PIC or SIC of any airplane because he is not current, due to him not having his flight review accomplished…none of those factors would have any effect on if they log either PIC or SIC, u dont have to be instrumented rated to act as a safety pilot, you dont need to be endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, and your not current to fly any airplane because your not current yourself

    let me put in an example…im a cfi(not a CFII)…if a pilot of a high-performance aircraft asks me to act as a saftey pilot of his aircraft so he can get instrument current, i can log it as PIC. that is because even though i dont have a hign-performance endorsement myself i am still acting as his safety pilot which means i can log the PIC

  • CFI

    i still dont agree…both pilots technically can log PIC, just like how a CFI logs PIC even though his student would be the “sole manipulatier of the flight controls”…also a safety pilot does NOT have to have his high performance or complex sign-off in order to be a saftey pilot, he only has 2 have “at least a private pilot cert. with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.” FAR 91.109 last time i check neither of these sign-offs fall under either of these

    aw well in 91.109, nowhere in there does it say you can log SIC, like i said before techinically they are also PIC because they are responsible for “see and avoid” responsibility of other aircraft…therefore they can both log PIC, now as a “safety pilot” i prob wouldnt log that but since im a cfi i dont have to worry about that

    as i said in earlier comments…the only time a person may log SIC is a)when a TYPE rating is required b)an aircraft over 12,500 lbs, c)any turbo-jet aircraft, and d)any aircraft the FAA deems worthy of requiring a SIC… last time i checked a saftey pilot doesnt fall under any of these…technically yes in order for Pilot A to be under the foggles another person has to be aboard but that other person does not meet any of this criteria for SIC

    now in your scenario above i dont think Pilot B would be able to act as either PIC or SIC of any airplane because he is not current, due to him not having his flight review accomplished…none of those factors would have any effect on if they log either PIC or SIC, u dont have to be instrumented rated to act as a safety pilot, you dont need to be endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, and your not current to fly any airplane because your not current yourself

    let me put in an example…im a cfi(not a CFII)…if a pilot of a high-performance aircraft asks me to act as a saftey pilot of his aircraft so he can get instrument current, i can log it as PIC. that is because even though i dont have a hign-performance endorsement myself i am still acting as his safety pilot which means i can log the PIC

  • CFI

    i still dont agree…both pilots technically can log PIC, just like how a CFI logs PIC even though his student would be the “sole manipulatier of the flight controls”…also a safety pilot does NOT have to have his high performance or complex sign-off in order to be a saftey pilot, he only has 2 have “at least a private pilot cert. with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.” FAR 91.109 last time i check neither of these sign-offs fall under either of these

    aw well in 91.109, nowhere in there does it say you can log SIC, like i said before techinically they are also PIC because they are responsible for “see and avoid” responsibility of other aircraft…therefore they can both log PIC, now as a “safety pilot” i prob wouldnt log that but since im a cfi i dont have to worry about that

    as i said in earlier comments…the only time a person may log SIC is a)when a TYPE rating is required b)an aircraft over 12,500 lbs, c)any turbo-jet aircraft, and d)any aircraft the FAA deems worthy of requiring a SIC… last time i checked a saftey pilot doesnt fall under any of these…technically yes in order for Pilot A to be under the foggles another person has to be aboard but that other person does not meet any of this criteria for SIC

    now in your scenario above i dont think Pilot B would be able to act as either PIC or SIC of any airplane because he is not current, due to him not having his flight review accomplished…none of those factors would have any effect on if they log either PIC or SIC, u dont have to be instrumented rated to act as a safety pilot, you dont need to be endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, and your not current to fly any airplane because your not current yourself

    let me put in an example…im a cfi(not a CFII)…if a pilot of a high-performance aircraft asks me to act as a saftey pilot of his aircraft so he can get instrument current, i can log it as PIC. that is because even though i dont have a hign-performance endorsement myself i am still acting as his safety pilot which means i can log the PIC

  • CFI

    i still dont agree…both pilots technically can log PIC, just like how a CFI logs PIC even though his student would be the “sole manipulatier of the flight controls”…also a safety pilot does NOT have to have his high performance or complex sign-off in order to be a saftey pilot, he only has 2 have “at least a private pilot cert. with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.” FAR 91.109 last time i check neither of these sign-offs fall under either of these

    aw well in 91.109, nowhere in there does it say you can log SIC, like i said before techinically they are also PIC because they are responsible for “see and avoid” responsibility of other aircraft…therefore they can both log PIC, now as a “safety pilot” i prob wouldnt log that but since im a cfi i dont have to worry about that

    as i said in earlier comments…the only time a person may log SIC is a)when a TYPE rating is required b)an aircraft over 12,500 lbs, c)any turbo-jet aircraft, and d)any aircraft the FAA deems worthy of requiring a SIC… last time i checked a saftey pilot doesnt fall under any of these…technically yes in order for Pilot A to be under the foggles another person has to be aboard but that other person does not meet any of this criteria for SIC

    now in your scenario above i dont think Pilot B would be able to act as either PIC or SIC of any airplane because he is not current, due to him not having his flight review accomplished…none of those factors would have any effect on if they log either PIC or SIC, u dont have to be instrumented rated to act as a safety pilot, you dont need to be endorsed to fly high-performance airplanes, and your not current to fly any airplane because your not current yourself

    let me put in an example…im a cfi(not a CFII)…if a pilot of a high-performance aircraft asks me to act as a saftey pilot of his aircraft so he can get instrument current, i can log it as PIC. that is because even though i dont have a hign-performance endorsement myself i am still acting as his safety pilot which means i can log the PIC

  • Tristan

    Logging flight time?

    Senario –

    I have a Private Pilot single engine land endorsment, can I log the training time I have in a multi-engine aircraft as I am sole manipulator? (but not rated yet… and i have not solo-ed in one)

    Please email me a response.

  • Tristan

    Logging flight time?

    Senario –

    I have a Private Pilot single engine land endorsment, can I log the training time I have in a multi-engine aircraft as I am sole manipulator? (but not rated yet… and i have not solo-ed in one)

    Please email me a response.

  • Tristan

    Logging flight time?

    Senario –

    I have a Private Pilot single engine land endorsment, can I log the training time I have in a multi-engine aircraft as I am sole manipulator? (but not rated yet… and i have not solo-ed in one)

    Please email me a response.

  • Jerry spear

    This married couple each have a private ASEL. The wife is current and has a medical. The husband has not been able to renew his medical yet. He does all the flying………..can they both log PIC time for such flights ?

  • Amster105

    I have a ASEL rating. I go to a new flight rental company to get checked out in one of their aircraft that I have all the proper endorsements for. I am not a student, this is not a training flight, the instructor is there only to check my competency in flying the aircraft (i.e. he does not touch the controls at all).

    Who gets PIC? Who doesn't?

  • Jim

    Are two pilots required under the regulations in which the flight is being conducted?
    Yes
    Does the SIC pilot hold appropriate category and class ratings for the aircraft (even if he/she doesn’t have the proper endorsements)?
    Yes

    FAR 61.51 Pilot Logbooks 

    (f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person: 

    (1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft’s type certificate; or 

    (2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft OR THE REGULATIONS UNDER WHICH THE FLIGHT IS BEING CONDUCTED.

  • Anonymous

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  • Ken

    One more question, say you are not current and getting a Flight review (biennial), I would assume you can log it as instruction but not PIC since technically you are not legal even though you may be the sole manipulator of the controls?

  • Horton

    What about Instruction in a FTD or Simulator or AATD. Does the instructor log instrument time?

  • Courier123

    Or the regulations require it for the flight being conducted.

  • Dr.Rich ERD

    Helicopter Pilot?
    Or Harvard?
    lol, no offense.. Just good knowledge.

  • Jerrydenim

    Log whatever you want young bucks and aspiring aviators but if you’re logging SIC in a C-172 you’re going to look like an idiot if and when you get a real pilot interview. If you’re extremely low time and creatively logged flight time is the only thing that will get you across the finish line of an employer’s bare minimums, then it may be worth a shot, but unless they are desperate or you are connected, the company will probably go with another pilot who has more solid flight time and probably looks more honest than you thanks to your logbook.

    JAA rules utilize extra flight time categories like “Pilot Under Training” and “Pilot in Command Under Supervision” which makes command time a little easier to sort out in ambiguous situations.  Having to choose between PIC and SIC will always lead to some problems in situations like the ones discussed here.  My advice is to always log your flight time as the more conservative choice in instances where the FAR’s could be debated. If you are hoping to be an airline pilot one day you don’t want to engage in a pedantic debate where you are forced to defend your tortured logic and dubious flight time with a person who can make or break your career.  If it can be questioned then why give someone the chance? Creatively logged flight time is bad for your career so why bother?

     

  • Howardpearce

    I am working on the instrument requirements for a CPL in Canada. If I fly with another pilot who has filed IFR and I sit in the right seat, could I log this as dual instrument time?

  • Beyondaerosolutions

    FAR 135.109

  • Tx Ak Pilot

     No. He has no medical, thus he cannot act as a pilot in any capacity…not even a student pilot. Only exception might be some of the new light sport rules where you need not have a medical.

  • Tx Ak Pilot

     If you were with a CFI-ME, yes.

  • Arturo

    ”Acting as PIC – Regulations require that one person on board is always acting as PIC.

    This person is legally responsible for the safe operation of that aircraft. However
    regulations also allow for one additional person to log PIC as long as that person
    generates an experience of sufficient value.”
    Jason, awesome article. That part I quoted from your writing describes my situation to perfection. Where can I find that regulation? ”As long as the person generates an experience of sufficient value”. Can that be applied in ASEL if sharing time with someone that is not proficient in a new airplane in which this person has never built experience?

    Thanks for your dedication.

  • Mojopilot85

    There is a “legal interpretation” from the FAA on a topic you have discussed above.  The question is can a ASEL private pilot without a complex endorsement act as PIC of a complex aircraft.  

    The FAA has determined that due to the ambiguity of the regulations, which require the pilot to only be appropriately rated, that it IS ok for that pilot to log PIC time as a safety pilot. 

    http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/ 
    Search for “Rizner”

  • MEMEBLACKWELL

    EWWWWWW

  • n7mk

    But not PIC.

  • Terence Verma

    How do u log time if u hold an SPL and do not have an endt and, are under instruction?

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